Thrillingly, we talked with one of Elizabeth’s favorite story gurus (who would probably reject the title and certainly any authoritarian implications that might attend it), Matt Bird, the author of The Secrets of Story. We talk Game of Thrones and ask and answer the question, What makes a story good enough to pull in even unconvinced readers? Warm language, intimacy, hope–this doesn’t sound like masochism, does it? But we get into the right way to be antagonistic with your reader, the importance and limitations of irony, the value of finding your story and ways to do so, and how to use a checklist (specifically, Matt’s 122 item checklist) without inhibiting your creativity. Other topics include unreliable narrators, upsetting rather than merely defying the reader’s expectations, breaking your own rules and writing what you don’t know. We dig into what stories teach us about solving problems and what solving problems teaches us about story. And much more.

Story Makers is a podcast that features in-depth conversations with accomplished writers, filmmakers and industry experts about story craft, technique, habit and survival–everything you need to know to stay inspired, connect to your creativity, find others’ wonderful stories and your own success.

The hosts:

Elizabeth Stark is a published, agented novelist and distributed filmmaker who teaches and mentors writers at BookWritingWorld.com.

Angie Powers is a distributed filmmaker and published short story writer with an MFA in creative writing and a certificate in screenwriting from UCLA who teaches story structure at BookWritingWorld.com.